Ray: Hello. Soil lovers Regen Ray here for another episode of Secrets of the Soil. Are you excited to start digging deeper? I know you’re going to love today’s guests, Jono. All the way from New Zealand, he’s joining us. How are you doing Jono?
Jono: Yeah, good things. Ray, really good.
Ray: Excellent. Well, I know our soul lovers are going to be really keen to know who you are and how you fit into the landscape of regenerating and healing our soil. So share with them a little bit about you.
Jono: Sure. So I am a Regenerative agriculture coach. I spend a lot of my time educating farmers on the ground, working on two summers, creating resilient food production systems that encompass the whole . And this has been a lot of time teaching students and all the way from ages five and up to university level. I’m really getting people reconnected and engaged with the landscapes, and other than that, I’m the father of two beautiful children. And yes, that’s who I am.
Ray: Yeah,love that yeah, yeah. I feel I feel like, you know, over the years, we’ve gotten to know each other. I’ve seen you pick up in on the online world, I guess, and education, be near and dear to my space. I think we kind of hit it off from the start going, you know, we can roll up our sleeves, get our hands dirty and educate everyone and let them see the world from a little bit of a different, different lens. And I know you’ve been busy in different enterprises and you’ve got to spend a little while in this. I think last time one of the times we chatted, you even on the road living in like a, you know, a motorhome, I guess, on wheels. And you were like that that committed to like going on site and spending time with farmers. You didn’t want to just do like a one one hour visit or a six hour consultation. You wanted to really embody the farm. How important is that on the ground coaching as you referred to it as before?
Jono: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. That was the IR 22. We did the we did a tour and camper vans, me and my my business partner, Peter Barrett from Member Station. We did 27 shows from the top of the north island of New Zealand, right down to the bottom of the south in the space of just under three weeks of non-stop crazy
Ray: I was watching, we were in lockdown and also in the snow. If you go in around the country, I was like, Oh,
Jono: we’re just come out of lockdown and I was definitely ready for it. I was ready for some adventure. And yeah, and so how important is that, man? It’s it’s important in context, like everything, context is key and what I mean by on the ground as I think it really helps being related to farmers. Like when I speak, it’s it’s from experience. For those of you that don’t know, I was always a farmer and actually the only time I wasn’t farming, I was actually a chemical agronomist. Responsible for coming out was chemical and fertilizer recommendations for various fresh produce and seed production, arable pastoral systems. And so and then as well as that 11 years in the dairy industry, three years and chief of beef industry as a farmer myself, everything that I talked about, I talk about from having done and I think that gets out of the way. Some of that stuff, like, who’s this expert, you know, when I was a farmer would get the the advisors coming in, most of which were young, female and attractive coming in and their flash vehicles freshly graduated from university, telling us what to do. And it was always like, you know, although that’s on the ground, what’s missing is that sense of relatedness and and the the thing is, it gets for me, it was what it was, was it was delivered in a way all the systems that I was involved with a very simplified and fact oversimplified. They were massively complicated. So like people would come on with all this information and deliver it in a way that was just like, Wow, that sounds like too much to question. And so I didn’t question what I was told. I understood what I was told for most of my career, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it didn’t. And there was no power and that for me, I had no say in the matter. And so now what it is for me is by that on the ground support. What I mean is really getting down there with the farmers getting behind and underneath what it is they’re doing and why. And then together, coming up with solutions that overcome those those limitations. And I’m out there learning as much as as my clients, you know, I avoid the use of the word advisor and expert. Because I’m neither of those things, one I don’t tell farmers what to do. I’m about empowering farmers and giving them a say, but then also yeah. And then also I sort of feel like, who am I to think that I know what’s best for these guys farms? You know, like, although I’ve got lots of high level and perhaps foundational information to give, which helps for us to make these these decisions and create these systems together, I think the key thing is I’m not attached to anything looking a certain way. And so that’s where that sort of working together comes in.
Ray: Yeah. And I think that encapsulates been on the ground, you know, it’s about being there, physically smelling, hearing, tasting and getting to know the farmer. I think that’s a really important aspect of this because, you know, a lot of the information that is online and resources and people, it’s one way communication, you know, might tell the story of what works for that particular person, but it’s not taking into account the actual landscape and going, Oh, you’re really close to water and or you might have this and there’s a lot of variables. And I think that’s what’s really amazing about the regenerative space and holistic. He’s seen all the parts to make up the whole. And you do only get that and you touch on something that’s near and dear for me, which is like coming from experience. I think like when you’ve actually done something and it’s coming from personal experience rather than knowledge, it just has a different energy. And so and so you’ve also been very busy going on stages and speaking and and doing talks. Is that something that really energizes you? Because I guess that’s not on the paddocks, but you can see the people in the room, the lighting up as you’re speaking. Share a little bit about like that journey and like empowering people in more of a classroom environment where presentation?
Jono: Yeah, it is a new area for me, Ray. And when I say, I knew like this life that I created was not predictable. Like I was once very shy. And actually, I have this little. It’s hard to believe, isn’t it? I actually had this little photo here with me. It’s facing me. I’m going to turn around. I’ll give you. It’ll give you a fright. Like, This was me as a farmer, grumpy and look at the look at the physical change. Yes. And and so with that as my way of being as a farmer like this, this life I live at, being with others was not something that I could see coming, nor was it something that I necessarily planned or prepared for. It was just like when when I became present to my purposes, you know, I had I create a world that works, align with nature it begin it begin , and express for manifesting itself as something that I could not shut up about. And I’m sure you can relate to that, right? As like all of a sudden I got purposeful and what needed to be seed and the right opportunities to speak. And most importantly, listen just appeared in front of me, and it was about taking those opportunities as a rose until, you know, here I am today quite regularly getting asked to. I actually just finished last week, a week on the road, six flights in seven days while traveling around, doing, speaking for the New Zealand Wine Growers Association across New Zealand as a whole different area. That wasn’t an area that I went out to inspect, but turns out, you know, there’s a lot of them to be had in that area. Is growing growing wine and grapes for wine?
Ray: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And so I guess on this journey, you’re you’re speaking and you’re empowering and you’re educating people to think about the world from a more regenerative space. What does that word actually mean to you? And I know there’s a bit of a we don’t want to define it, but I’m really curious to know what it means to our guests and and what it means to you at a personal level.
Jono: Yeah. You know what it means to me, Ray, is how do I embrace and encourage life and maximize photosynthesis? Like that’s that’s really, really simple. And I can go into it in more detail would be here all day. But the foundations of what regenerative culture to me is maximising life in all aspects, including maximizing diversity and then just maximizing photosynthesis. And there’s lots of ways we can do that, but that’s what they are, the must haves or the must, must considers for every choice that is made for me in my life as this choice maximizing life as a maximising photosynthesis.
Ray: Yes. Yep. So just that that awareness of of life and and how that life under the ground and in around our ecosystems is is created. I love that. And and I think, you know it is. How do you instill that vision for people to see that like you? Is it something you can just download or is it like, you know, to use that word? Like how do you inspire people? Have you found it a way to articulate it for people to really get curious and understand that world
Jono: because it is,
Ray: you know, out of sight, out of mind, you know?
Jono: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And yet you hit the nail on the head. For me, man, it’s about inspiration and and I love telling stories. I really love telling stories and a story that I tell quite often as one of very limited life when I was brought often in a world of chemicals being the norm and killing every day all day was What do I need to care? What do I need to control? And then who I was as a human being and as a father and as a husband, and when I was married and all of my relationships reflected that way of being this controlling, manipulating, I’m superior. I’m separate from I keep everything to myself. And it’s no wonder my life was going how it was. I mean, on the surface, it looked like it was going great, but it’s a bit like the old duck on the water thing. Like on the surface, I look peaceful and graceful underneath those kickin like stink and and I really, you know, I struggled to sleep at night. My relationship broke down with my ex wife after 11 years. I didn’t deal with that. And then all of a sudden, there’s this light that came into my life and it came in the form of soil. And when I started to discover and I thought I was the expert, you know, I really had it that I knew it all. And how limiting was that, you know, being out there on Expert Island, it’s a lonely place. And when I discovered this whole world of life beneath our face, it was like, Holy Moly, you know, it really, really changed who I was as a human being, and their photo demonstrates at all. You know, that photo was me controlling life and manipulating and killing and then. And so that story and sort of inspires people and creates a space for knowledge and learning to show up. Because if we don’t create that space and an address the listing, because in most cases, what’s missing is essential listening. Like, we don’t listen for new possibilities. We listen for whether we know whether we agree with, we disagree. And all of that doesn’t leave much space for learning anything new. And for most of us, we’re in a world where, you know, even doctors who go through medical school spend, you know, the most I’ve heard of any doctors spending on nutrition and biology is very small. Like, we’re talking a day, maybe two that of a whole process of becoming educated and qualified. And so when we start talking about this new world of life and biology and complexity and and holism is it contradicts a lot of our current learning, which is abstract, linear, very narrow minded ways of operating. And so inspiration is a great way to create space for listening. But then also just authenticity like this. If I was to come in and be righteous and tell everyone, right guys, I know exactly what there is to do. I know everything. I’m the expert. Come and see me. I’ll tell you what to do. Already, there’s no listing possible. There’s no learning possible. So really getting out of the way, what’s in the way of the listening first and then that creates a space, create a sense of relatedness, and that’s done through authenticity being really real and open. And then we come on with what learnings have I had? What can I offer this person or the sort of people that would really make a difference for them?
Ray: Yeah, I know. And you’re so authentic to that. You know what I say you do online, and I know it’s a and filtered view, but you’re out in there. You’re you’re sharing stuff from your personal life to your campaign to where you’re you know which form you’re on and who you are helping and which stage. And you know, it’s just really, really refreshing to see you because it is and it is refreshing to see and hear. And and I love how you articulated that. And for our listeners who don’t have the visual aid of this photo that Jono is holding up, I can assure you that you would not tell that it’s the same person. There is just so much, you know, differences. And if you are watching the video version on our soil learning center, you will see, you know, that it’s a different person, you know, different type of face, different energy, different smile, different glow, like it’s just and that’s from a photo, you know, imagine if you were in and around that person and what that would do. And so thank you very much for sharing that. And you know, I can relate to that whole discovery of the soil and. And becoming so curious about how it works and why has this been left out of the mainstream education and the narrative and why are we not talking about this amazing life under our feet? Like it just blew my mind and I can’t stop. I literally can’t stop. You know, I keep digging and digging and digging and learning and learning, and it fills my cup so much. You know, what’s something that like was a big aha moment for you when you first started discovering this wonderful world of soil?
Jono: ytHmm. Yes. And man, I’d something you just said didn’t really resonated with me around. Why don’t we know this stuff? Yeah. And I just want to get something out of the way that it’s there for me when you asked the question. And I look at it like, this is nature provides so much for free. And and I think that’s one of the biggest things is that and it’s so complex really for us to be able to wrap our minds around this vast complexity that is these natural systems that we’re just scratching. The surface of that is a whole different shift in what it is to be human for us to relate to that. Yeah, but particularly, you know, it’s it’s you follow the money in most situations and that will lead you to these simplified systems with reliance on and then put. So it’s clear for me why this stuff hasn’t been super available is just a reason. Secondly, aha moments. Yeah. So I I talk about often the moment where I discovered plant diversity being something that increases outcomes and in particular, dry matter production and animal health. That was something that really rocked my socks because I, my life was as an agronomist and as an arable farmer, but also as a grass growing grass. And I say ryegrass standard because that’s really what I was as a dairy farmer that didn’t allow for any diversity because we had that and we were taught that anything but the target as a threat, as a competition and something that’s going to take from us. And when I discovered having plants growing together symbiotically, had them all have better outcomes. It was just like, Oh, my goodness, but really, really, what it was for me was seeing the soil as a habitat, not as this medium, for nutrients to be held or to hold our roots out or to, you know, keep our posts upright. You know, that’s really what I viewed soil as. It was like the only times I’ve ever dug holes as a farmer was to repair posts that I’d broken or to fix water lines, etcetera. And the whole time of doing so, I treated it like dirt. You know, I just it was the substance that meant nothing to me. Now you’ll see me now I don’t go anywhere with that a spade. I’m digging holes all the time. Some metaphorical. I use that term all the time. I’m good at digging myself holes, but no digging holes all the time. And it’s amazing just what you can understand and what you can identify with your spade, your eyes, your nose, your hands and reconnecting those senses. And for me, when I look back on my life as analytical problem solving, using soil tests and numbers and and and metrics that don’t fit ecological function, all of a sudden it was like, Yeah, that was a massive moment for me, seeing the soil as this amazing complex, bustling habitat full of organisms doing work that I thought I needed to do. You know, like around nutrient provision and soil structure, you know, creating social structure and porosity. So wait a minute, that can all be done with these organisms that I can see with my eyes. I was like, Wow, and here I am out there breathing it all the time and on and on, and I’m connected to the soil. And man, I don’t get sick. You know, say this right now. The most powerful source of immunity is getting out there into yours soil, and it’s for any of the listeners that have children. And you might remember, being a child at some point is like we turn our backs on the children in the garden one second and its soil and mouth. Yeah, know that’s what they do. And I believe it’s like an innate, yeah, sorry. An inherent sort of natural instinct is to just inoculate oneself with this biologically diverse substance. And then we get, you know, for those of you that can remember back in the childhood and running through puddles, and that’s all we want to do as kids. And the next minute, it’s like, go and wash your hands and and look at this mess and don’t, you know, get out of that puddle and look at that dirt, you know, stop digging holes that’s yuck you know, germs and all the stuff, and then all of a sudden that curiosity was was diminished.
Ray: Yeah. So sad. So sad. I love them. Big movement now. People putting their kids into nature play that is encouraging people to make like mud pancakes and do leaf identification, you know, and it’s so really I have gone to a couple of community gardens where they’re encouraging this type of outside experiential learning, and the parents just see changes in their children pretty much in days of attending these different types of classrooms, outdoors in what environments. And it’s just the energy of all the people and the parents kind of collaborating and seeing the world and touching it and feeling. And I think it’s really important for the soil listeners. Soil lovers out there to just hear what Jono said about, you know, the the the sounds, the taste, the touch. It’s our five senses like we’re born with this stuff. We don’t need lab tests, you know, we don’t need complex tools and gadgets and equipment. We’ve got the tools that we need, right, built into our bodies. You know, we’ve got to start learning how to use those as our first line of defense and going, Oh, this is curious. Now let’s go a bit deeper and then go order the soil tests and things like that. So I want to thank you for that reminder of like, we have all the tools we need right on our bodies. Thanks to Mother Nature,
Jono: well, you who had that moment where like, for instance, you get a shower of rain and it’s been so dry and there’s a smell associated with that rain? Yeah, that’s biology. That’s a biological reaction to moisture. That’s life. And you can smell that. And same with those of you that have picked up soil. And I forget how far in this is. A lot of people ask me it’s everyday life, but I’ve got to put myself back in those shoes that I wore 10 years ago. Yeah, you’ll never catch me dead smelling soil and fake those dirt, you know? Yeah, does it? Yeah. What there is to to I want to present you to is the ability for us to smell healthy. Soil is like a shark’s ability to smell a drop of blood in an ocean of water because its life depends on that and your life depends on soil. So that smell you get when you’re smelling. So that’s beyond description and why it’s so hard for me to equate to for all of my quads, which have different senses of smell, how do it quite just can’t be done. I tell people they’re gonna to do it in their own words. But but actually describing that smell, it’s like you have a whiff of healthy soil and it’s just like, you know, it’s like, it’s like a very interesting thing. Beyond any basic sense of what a smell is, it does something to the human body. That’s because good, healthy soil is the foundation of life. We are connected to that.
Ray: Yeah, I love that distinction. That analogy of the blood in an ocean with the shark and its life is dependent on it is the same reason why when we smell good soil, we’re drawn to it. And when we smell bad soil or even just anything bad, we’re repulsed. Like the body knows what’s good and bad for us. Intuitively, you don’t need to learn anything. You don’t need an expiry date, you know, back in the day with no expiry date, just you. It’s not for this part of the cheese is still good. This isn’t, you know, and our soil is the same. And that, you know, we’re born with that natural ability to know what’s good and what’s not, because our main goal in life is to survive and thrive, you know, so I
Jono: love that man like used by dates whose idea was last, you know, what a great way to sell products. Yeah, it’s like when you and cheese. What a great example. Well, you know, in most cases, for those that enjoy cheese, that’s the older, the better. Yes, that’s right. And it’s crazy that we only look at the date. Oh no, that’s that’s all. You know, it’s like the nature. You won’t see wild dogs, you know, not eat a three week old carcass when they find an inside like actually fermented goods is actually really good for the body.
Ray: Yeah, that’s right. I know. And you know, and this is the world that’s unfolding for me as I start exploring more and more of this. And that’s, you know, like you, you start realizing not one of the things that I’ve realized is who’s sayin’? What, what’s been said, you know, like who created expiry date of food industry? Who was my sell more? OK, and to your point, before as well. Like, you know, the reason why nature isn’t spoken of more is because you can’t capitalize on it to some degree come bottle that up and say here, here’s a magic potion that you can put on your plants or something in mother nature heals and does it and builds the biodiversity and the life in the soil naturally. If we get out of the way, it’s done faster. You know that human need of control and let me be, you know, the ego I think it is that really gets in the way of a lot of this kind of clarity thinking,
Jono: Yeah, man, for sure.
Ray: Now you also food. You said you’re living healthier. What’s your take on like healthy farmer healthy decision? Have you seen a link in that kind? Narrative?
Jono: Yeah, I see. It’s amazing that the way that we act as farmers and as custodians of the land. When I say it, it represented and to who we’re being like when you step out of fight or flight, fear, protect, defend, attack, the body literally changes its genetic expression and will actually diversify biologically through just shifting your mindset. That mind-body connection is massive. When we step out of blame and guilt and victim and step into responsibility and connectedness and purpose and presence that alone on the human body physically is massive. And you know, I’m living proof of that. Nine months ago, I had a car accident that I broke my back and four places broke. Nine ribs, broke my shoulder and my foot into place. My children were seriously injured. My son was in a coma for three weeks. But through the whole process, you know, we we never created any resentment towards what happened. We didn’t add any drama. There was a lot of trust involved and there was very little fear. We were grateful to be alive and the way that we healed defied medical history. In fact, next week, I’m going to get to titanium. Roger moved it out of my back the quickest anyone has ever had those rods removed. And what is the level of risk involved in that as well? I fully trust my body is healed in a way that’s going to allow me to continue functioning without those instruments. So that in itself is a huge thing. People will change their mindset on the ground. Seeing people become more connected with their family, with their peers, the communities becoming a contribution to the community is huge. But then when I started to discover that stuff and said that has given the power of, for instance, biological diversity in the soil, and then I always make that that that comparison to that being very similar to the way that Guts work. When we diversify the biology or the microbiome within our gut, we literally get a quorum sensing phenomenon taking place in the gut, which gives us this crazy new sense of resilience and health and performance. And people transform, Ray? It’s not like an overnight thing, but it’s pretty quick. And then New Zealand, I don’t know about Australia, but New Zealand, the the agricultural industry has the highest rates of suicide and depression and any industry. Yeah. And when you look at the way that farmers have been operating and being told to operate and under the spotlight at the moment for, you know, being seen as like bad guys and destroyers of the environment, all the stuff, it’s like, no wonder. But here we have an opportunity to impact that. Here we have an opportunity for farmers to take responsibility and take back the power in their operations and in their lives. They’re not fox takers anymore. They’re not just sitting there doing what they’re told. They’re actually being proactive. They’re creating systems that take off all of the regulatory boxes whilst increasing production and profitability. I mean, that in itself has as well as happy farmers.
Ray: Excellent. Yeah. And that’s why I was going down that whole health of your body and your environment, and I and I agree with you. And in Australia, that is a massive topic. And you know, a lot of people don’t know this, but it’s actually not allowed to be reported when suicide is involved. And so we don’t get we get this filtered view where we don’t know the actual truth that’s actually happening. The numbers are reported, but you won’t see a write up on it. And you know, I think if there was the ability to report and call out the elephant in the room, there is a massive problem there and seen farmers fall back in love with their farm again, which was one of the reasons why farming secrets was put in place many years ago, is that Helen and Hugo could see that farmers started with this dream and they wanted to grow wholesome food and then fell into the system. And then many years later, they it was a chore. It was like, how many kilos of these are we putting on this crn and what chemical inputs do we need to buy that? We don’t have money for that. We better go ask the bank for and they like this in the life we signed up for and seen the mind shipped in meeting the farmers who wake up some day and go, I’m going to do it differently. Or, you know, I see posts everywhere now online where they say, yes, I’m a conventional farmer, but I’m open for change. And we didn’t see this even three years ago. And so with your line of work and being in this space, how, how, how does someone because I’ve seen video recordings of like farmers in a in a room. With all their arms crossed going year and tell me what to do. My father, his father and his father did it this way. How do you slowly see that change happening in the farming world and growing world?
Jono: And it starts for me Ray with not making anyone or anything wrong, especially the past, because it’s been done. If we to make people wrong for the decisions that they made in the past, that’s when the defense comes in and it’s righteous and it’s, yeah, there’s no progression there. So, you know, firstly, just acknowledging that I know from having been at the complete other ends of the spectrum of being a full-blown chemical, you know, license to kill operator to where I am now is like, there’s nothing wrong. What we have is just what we have and owning where we’re at currently. It’s not like it’s something wrong or moral, but just for what’s so as like, OK, this is this is the way that things have been. That’s great. I’m going to pack that and I’m just going to listen brand newly . And so getting that that conflict more or that there is less friction out of the way first allows us to create like I worked with some farm operations, three four active generations, all working together. And if we’re not open minded and if we’re righteous and holding on to the past, you can see how those situations get depicted as being very toxic. But what I see is when we deal with past leave, the past where it is, create this blank canvas and give everyone an opportunity to give their own little contribution to this piece of art. And I’ll call it a piece of art, because farming is that’s really is an art form, as all of a sudden everyone gets to contribute and they’re not scared to contribute, and they’re not scared to put their hand up and say, Hey, this didn’t work so well. It’s like being able to own our stuff-ups as much as own our wins as you know, the way we all move forward together. So, yeah, I think as you get the morality out of the situation leads a person to pass that gets rid of this whole, you know? Yeah. And I was actually approached this week and I was told by someone who I really, you know, I really don’t take his words lightly. As he said to me, Jono, I don’t know how you do it, but when you get up and speak, people put their weapons down. And I think that all comes back to that authenticity. I’m not up there saying, right, you guys are all destroying the planet. Shame on you. You know what a great way to get nothing done. Yeah. It’s like, OK, guys, you know, here’s a little we got a story about me. I’ve been in the really other end and and what I have now for you was this opportunity, this amazing opportunity. And guess what? You will get to play a part in it. All of a sudden silence me. I can do this like I can make a difference. Yeah. It’s like all of a sudden they wake up to how big they are.
Ray: I love the way you’ve just articulated that, you know there is no right and there is no wrong. There is no past. It’s like you have to. It is just a line so much with the whole journey. And it’s a process. You know, you don’t wake up one day and have all this information downloaded into your brain and that permission to stuff out. You know, like, we’ve killed that culture, that failure is bad. It’s like, no. Like some great inventions, we have moved as a race forward because of failures and stuff ups, you know, and farmers love to innovate. They’re always in the shed tinkering and welding and making new tools. And how can this be faster and quicker? Like innovation, more powerful horsepower engines?
Jono: You know, innovation
Ray: is at the heart of farmers. You know, they want to solve these problems. And I love that you created this space for people to really find their truths and find what works for them. And there is no right or wrong. And that’s what I’ve really loved about being in this space is that you hear all these different ideas and even, you know, you know, people that on the same land and there’s a fence that divides them up doing two different approaches, and it’s working for their model for exactly how their goals, you know, and it’s not about looking over the fence and seeing what everyone else is doing.
Jono: And that’s where innovation happens, man innovation doesn’t happen by people who are waiting for the peer reviewed papers. You know, if we’re going to wait for that, you know, it’s what people are forgetting is that, you know, they have as much with their observational skills, with the support that’s available, they can provide. When I say farmers, food production specialists, we call them everyday folk like you and me. We have just as much credibility with our observations and our discoveries as anyone else. And science is not innovation. Science comes after and. Validates the innovation or whatever the outcome may be. So, you know, let’s not let’s not wait for the science. This is where we create and discover here.
Ray: Yeah, I was in a room the other day, a virtual room and there was a scientist and they literally were walking a paddock and they said, I don’t care about the science. I’m saying this with my own eyes, and what’s happening is leaps and bounds ahead of what we’re doing in the lab, you know? And everyone was just in awe. You know, everyone was just like, This is, you know, and I agree, like the science is there to back up a curiosity after someone’s had that idea. And if you wait for the science to be the leader, we kind of got our foot backwards. You know, we need a question and go, this feels right. This sounds right. This looks better than the science will catch up if it if it even needs to, because it’s in the pudding. Like, you know, all legislation, people hide behind this. I’ll wait until it’s law. I’ll wait until it’s like required that I need to do this. Why?
Jono: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, the other thing that I invite the listeners to get excited about, although some may not find it very exciting, is that guess what? We’re never done. We’re never at a point where it’s like, This is it? I’ve got the answer. You know, what we’re dealing with here is a dynamic, always changing organism. And right now in New Zealand, what we’re dealing with is really old, really industrially tainted data. And when I say industrially tainted, it’s like when all of a sudden free to use funding of science disappeared from government and all of a sudden it had to be done through the private sector. All of that, all the questions that asked really reflect the outcome that the provider of the funds to the science wants to see. And sadly, that’s how science was done for many, many decades. It’s like, OK, here we have a problem. Here we have a funding source. All right, guys, tell us what we need to find out. What do you want this to work or do you want it to not work? And then the science, you know, nothing against them. They just doing what they need to do to put food on the table as they then go and ask the right questions, perform the right studies that give us the right answer. So like it being scientifically safe to smoke while pregnant, like it being scientifically safe to use DDT not only in food production systems, but in areas like in air beds to kill bed bugs and things like that. You know, that was all scientifically proven at one point, so we must not stick to something being true forever. Yeah, it’s always have a sense of curiosity. I shared a post last week and I would rather have questions that cannot be answered than have answers that cannot be questioned. So don’t stop questioning.
Ray: Yeah, he hit it up, brother. I couldn’t agree with you more. And you know, being in the marketing world and seeing some of the marketing campaigns of the early days of like smoking being healthy and these doctors recommend . So it’s like, wow, like this is like everyone was doing the best of what they knew at that point. Now we put let him paint, we put asbestos everywhere like everyone thought they were doing the right thing. And there’s nothing to say that right now we all doing the right thing. And in 20 years time, massive red flags, you know, kind of scratching our head going, how did anyone even think that that was saying, you know, and that’s exactly my thought with science and love science, and it’s definitely needed. And I’m not anything, but it’s just knowing how science works and even the funding. And that’s why I said before it’s about who’s saying what and not what’s being said, because a lot of the funding behind this and the hypothesis, as we know from year 10 or early day science, you always set the hypotheses at the start and you go and collect all the data to prove the hypothesis. And so that in itself, you know, for me is like, I get it and I like the fact that it’s proved. But what someone else I mean, he’s saying, you know, and what’s so and like, I’ve been saying this a lot lately, and I don’t know if I get in trouble saying he’s online, but it’s like the skin care company. He’s never going to fund the research. Where water is better for your skin, never. They’re not incentivized, you know,
Jono: 100 percent, you know.
Ray: And maybe we maybe we he’s thinking, What does no good for us in that that could be the magic source, but no one’s funded that research. So it’s not backed by science, you know? And so it’s interesting. I love that you and I think the same way when it comes to that, I’m meeting more and more people and especially in the world that we’re living in now where everything’s kind of like, Oh, but, you know, backed by science, but science? Yeah. But yeah, anyway, let’s not go down the rabbit hole.
Jono: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ray: So Jono, I’ve loved chatting with you, and I really want to give you the opportunity to become the voice of our soils. So you ready?
Ray: Excellent. If you were the voice of our soils and right now you are, what would you tell us on Earth
Jono: that silences is intentional because I can’t speak for the soil too tight. I can’t breathe. I’m trying. Say, Hey, guys, I’m down here. You need to look after me. I need help right now. I’m drowning. I’m too dry. I’m burnt. I need feed. You’re not feeding me what I need. And that’s that’s I just made that up. I just put myself down there. And that’s what I would say. As I’d be saying, Hey, guys, please remember me down here.
Ray: Yep. Stop. I can help you. Yeah, I love that. And this is the reason why I don’t share this question for the listeners. No one knows that these questions coming up unless they’ve been active listeners, but it is about just sayin what’s in the heart right then? And I love that, you know, there was silence. I can’t speak, I’m suffocated, I’m squashed, I’m tired. I’m, you know, not able to give the life that I need because you’re absolutely suffocating me thinking, you’re doing the right thing. And I I really felt that, you know, I knew I need to silence was intentional. You know, the podcast I used to break it out when there’s silence,
Jono: but I didn’t want you to freak out and I could feel it.
Ray: I could feel it. And I really want to thank you for taking me and the soul listeners into that space and becoming the soil the voice of our soil. Jono, it’s been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. I know that you and I can chat for years and years and days and days. I can’t wait for border restrictions to ease so I can come and hang out physically with you in New Zealand. I’ve just self invited myself, by the way.
Jono: Yeah, no sure. Doors always open.
Ray: is there any final words you want to share with us? soil lovers
Jono: know. Just get curious. Doesn’t matter who you are if you eat food in the soil is important to you and affects your work. There’s no one who doesn’t think so, but it really does impacts us all. This affects us all. And there is so much yet to be contributed to, to be discovered when when we look at soil, you know, I say this all the time. We literally know more about space than soil, and it’s saying something. Yeah. And so there’s a lot to be discovered. And what’s that? We need new perspectives. We need different thoughts. We need different eyes looking at things so that we can come up with new solutions, new possibilities, new systems that might have us all thrive together. Because, you know, I believe that the future is a collaborative one and that we need to work together more than ever. So that’s my invitation. Get educated, get learning lots of stuff online. Follow my YouTube channel, follow all the links in my and my bio. You’ll learn plenty on the and have a lot of fun. Yeah, it is good fun.
Ray: Totally, totally totally addicted to this. I’ll tell you that much. Jono thanks will be around the show notes. If you’re listening to on audio and if you’re on a soil learning send out, the links will also be around the video version of this, and I couldn’t agree more with the life under our feet, and we know more about space than what we do about the soils that we walk on every day. So, Jono thanks very much for sharing your wisdom and digging deep with myself and our soil listeners via this podcast. I really appreciate it.
Jono: Thanks, Ray, and thanks everyone for listening.
Ray: Excellent. Well, soil lovers as they have it. You get outside, look up into space, but also remember to look down what’s beneath the ground and get your hands dirty and keep digging deeper into our wonderful world of souls. I’m Rege Ray